User talk:GreenReaper/Policy7

This is an archive page, covering admin and policy issues discussed on my user talk page from 10 June 2007 to 3 May 2008. Please do not edit this page - if you wish to bring up a topic, copy the relevant portion into a new section on the current page. Thanks! --GreenReaper^(talk)

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RBW event status

Regarding User talk:Foxberance#Convention vs. party vs. event

As the main organizer for both the 2007 and 2008 RBW conventions i would like to point out that we ARE a convention.

We have in fact a number of specific tracks for fursuiting, spiritual Furs, art, and general entertainment. We also are based at two location. The 'Party' aspect being held on the boat on the Saturday evening along with the more traditional programming being held at the main venue throughout Saturday and Sunday. 2007 and 2008 have specific affiliated hotels to the convention. RBW as of 1st July will be a registered UK charity and LLP As myself (Foxb) and Rapido as the chairmen.

For 2008 we are holding the event at a major and yet to be disclosed venue in London across 4 days. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Foxberance (talk • contribs) .

I'd like to see what other people think of this, so I'll bring it up as a question on the appropriate talk page. I would note that there is no mention of a hotel on your website, and in fact the only thing it says about accommodation is that it is not provided as part of the registration. The term "track" is also generally used to refer to several things happening simultaneously in different locations rather than one after the other. --GreenReaper^(talk) 07:38, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Newspaper Articles

Hi GR. Just writing wondering if you can clarify the way articles on newspaper pieces should look?

Sine has gone and removed the italicization of the title from two entries I put in today: Lions and Tigers and Bears, Oh My‎, March of the Furries. (I'd originally copied the format from an earlier article about a Denver Westword piece: Let's Pretend We're Bunny Rabbits.)

Is Sine's way correct? (It seems to be, I think Sine is using an accepted style, but I thought I'd double-check before spending time going through the list of Media Coverage articles and standardizing them all - there are few in there that italicize the title).

Also, some articles on newspaper/magazine columns have the "(year) events" category whilst others don't. What's the correct thing here? -- Higgs Raccoon 20:56, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

I would generally agree with this. The titles of newspaper articles are typically encased in quotes if there is a need to offset them from the text. Given that they are already bolded (being the title of the page) this is probably not necessary. We would italicize the name of the publication.

It's tempting to suggest that we should use Category:News by date for this, but it's probably a good idea to keep the two concepts separate. We do have the Timeline of media coverage for non-furry media. I don't think the date categorization really adds much in this case, so it could be removed (they're not really an event). --GreenReaper^(talk) 22:03, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

WTF!?!?

You know, you've really demonstrated why I made the right choice to get the hell away from you furries.

I posted a warning about a person who vicitimized me, abused me, left me in a horrible financial situation, and even said he plans to kill someone, all of these FACTS, and you accuse me of attacking someone and delete the post, and don't even bother to contact me.

What the F*** is the matter with you?

Fine, to hell with you if you want to shield Siege, and let him continue to attack other furries. Your name will go down with a list of many others once Siege is put in jail for felony assault, fraud, domestic abuse and much more and the truth is known, the truth I am trying like hell to get out.

You can't imagine how pissed off this makes me feel. Every where I turn, there's Siege, lying, being protected, being allowed to, enabled, to abuse and possibly kill people because people like you can't have the common decency to check things out.

Why didn't I post proof? First, I didn't see a way to post images. Second, I can't legally post Siege's father's phone number. Third, I can't legally post the name of his employer so that that lie can be verified. Fourth, what the hell sense does it make for me to post the name and location of the person Siege has threatened to kill? What are you, f*ing stupid, or do you WANT to see him killed? Is that the only way you people will see the truth; or will you find some way to blame that on me too?

You know, its bad enough that Siege f*ed me over; took advantage of me, abused me, deprived me of my ability to finish college, much less survive; took away my ability to be financially independent (I'm disabled)...now I have to continue to be victimized by you, Maui, and all the other people who believe a sociopath over a victim.

I want you to do me, and yourself, and the furry community a HUGE f*ing favor. Try to imagine how I feel, what I"m going through...its quite easy, just pretend in that brain of yours, that what I said was all factual. If you can do that, if you can imagine what it was like for me, then you will understand how difficult it is to restrain myself from going totally off on you for this. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 4.242.147.72 (talk • contribs)

What you posted was an essay, not an encyclopedia article. It was purely intended as an attack on the character of its subject and contained several unsubstantiated statements from your point of view. Regardless of whether or not it was true (something that none of us could have proved to our own satisfaction from the zero references given), it was not a good article. General policy in this case is to delete unsubstantiated attacks and stick with the bare minimum of facts that we can confirm. As none of it was referenced, the entire article was deleted (by another administrator, I might add - but I do agree with him).

WikiFur is not the court of Internets justice. Nor is it our job to "check things out". If you wish to make such statements on WikiFur, it is your job to provide us with all the sources necessary to do so without risk. If there is a serious problem then you should go to the real world police and talk to them - and any action that they take will provide a series of referencable documents that can be used in the construction of an article, if necessary. If you want to make an assertion of facts that you cannot provide third-party proof for then you should do so on your personal web page or journal. This is not the place for it, any more than an issue of Encyclopedia Brittanica would be the place to announce new research or accuse someone of corruption.

Ultimately, we do not wish to be responsible for defaming someone. Unless what you say is true, defamation is exactly what your essay is, and we're not willing to take that risk just on your word. There is a big difference between saying "Person X says this" and "we say this" - and your essay was the latter. If we say bad things about someone, we must take reasonable care to assure their accuracy, and that is why we insist on references in such cases - so that we can attribute accusations and base our own statements on verifiable facts. Without such proof, we risk opening ourselves up to legal liability for publishing statements with reckless disregard as to whether or not they are true. See the bottom of Sibe for the level of referencing that is considered appropriate. That article is not perfect in other ways, but we are at least reasonably sure that the statements within it are accurate and that we won't get sued for it. --GreenReaper^(talk) 07:42, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

It seems that he is throwing quite the temper tantrum in his LJ, too. [1] [2] --Douglas Muth 03:26, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Well, is there a way we can calmly put some of that information out. Surely, he has screenshots of emails, chat logs and transcripts? - Shadow Hito

Sure, if he posts them somewhere that we can cite in a reference. As it is, he's pretty much asking us to take his word for it. And that just won't fly for that sort of controversial material. --Douglas Muth 13:17, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia Extinctioners Page

Hey GreenReaper, I was wondering if I could ask your opinion or help on the Wikipedia Extinctioners page. The Page had a second deletion debate and survived but in the process, all links to the Wikifur page were removed, I was wondering what can be done, can a link to the main page be put back in the external links section? there was this huge wikifur link removal thing which I only heard bits and pieces about which I think was envolved with the links being removed. I would really like to put back the link since the wikifur article has much better coverage on the topic but I just don't know if doing so would restart the removal process or threaten my membership with wikipedia. What do you think I should do? Oh, here is the link to the question posted by Labfox - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Extinctioners#Wikifur_Link - RVDDP2501 21:26, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

If you think a link is good you should put it back. If it gets taken out again, take it to the talk page. Nobody is going to ban you over that (at least not unless you keep doing it after being told not to by several people :-). --GreenReaper^(talk) 03:04, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

Request for blanking

I would like to ask if you could blank the page http://en.wikifur.com/wiki/Alvero

The thing is written totally by Mitch from Crushyiffdestroy and is all about the time they were harrassing me online, I didn't even know it was on here until today.

- Alvero

I will note your request on the discussion page, and if the consensus is to exclude then we will do so. Our general policy is to do so unless there is a good reason not to, and I don't immediately see one here, just a lot of drama over a single issue.

(For what it's worth, if the story element you disliked had been included maliciously, I don't think the author would have gotten so angry about your accusation.) --GreenReaper^(talk) 21:45, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

I second this vote —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.155.232.212 (talk • contribs) .

Umm, it's not really a vote, and it should be discussed here. :-) --GreenReaper^(talk) 21:56, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

"Not Certified = Not Artist?" News

Just re-posting what I put in the talk section of that page, in case you didnt check: It's not personal drama any more than the "Krystal Meme". Trust me, this has effected a LOT of furaffinity members. I added it because I thought people out of the know needed a place to find out what was going on without having to wait for the monstrous page to load, or hear about it from biased, or angered sources. It has already reached LiveJournal and EncyclopediaDramatica, a place I doubt one can find unbiased furry news. It has spawned numerous pictures of its own, but no, lol, it hasnt necessarily caught the newsworthy eye of Vinci and Arty..-- AnonIhmus^(talk)

This matters to a lot of people and affects a lot of people from the site, but whatever..Take it down, I dont give a shit. My links did work, btw.

Not that it matters, but just fyi- this effected at least a thousand people, not one. I kinda said before it effected a lot of people, not just the journal poster, but people who saw it, people who heard about it and so on...It also made its way into 2 The Ranting Gryphon's show. ~Anon Ihmus

Question

Hey GreenReaper, sorry to bother you but I was wondering if I could ask your opinion and help with something, I am in the process of creating a character page for a character who will soon appear in the Extinctioners Artic Blue Webcomic called "Neige Unuulaq (Frostbite)" who was originally created by Rei Vegan, my question is in regards to an image created by Rei Vegan, a model/reference sheet for Frostbite - http://www.furaffinity.net/view/427311/ - Rei Vegan has given me permission to create the character page as well as use this reference sheet in the page but what do I do about the licencing info, do I need to get a licence from wikifur to use art by Rei Vagen? - RVDDP2501 03:07, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

You can upload it and say on the image page that Rei has given WikiFur permission to host the image, as long as Rei has told you that this is the case. If you say on the page that you have acquired a particular permission, we will generally take your word for it. --GreenReaper^(talk) 03:22, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Speedy Deletion Question

Is it appropriate to mark outdated images of your own fursona for speedy deletion? Thought I'd check before I got myself into trouble ;) --Tikuko 18:25, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

No, that's fine. --GreenReaper^(talk) 18:31, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

As in it's allowed? --Tikuko 18:40, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Yes. :-) --GreenReaper^(talk) 19:01, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

"See also" Re: "How To Be a Furry"

"It is a WikiFur article". Yes, but don't we follow that "See also"s links should be reserved to "related" Wikifur articles?; In this case, Crush! Yiff! Destroy!, LOLfurries and Furfags.com are "related" due to their purpose and function; on the Drama article, Fursecution and Schadenfreude are "related" on the "See also" for their meaning and intent; On the Anthropomorphic article, etc, etc,..

Right now, How To Be a Furry is the odd man out on a "See also" that lists related web sites with this type of content, hence the "See also"s directs to related Wikifur/Wikipedia/Wiki articles and entries only. Didn't say it was not a Wikifur article, just that needed to be "related." Spirou 03:03, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

I placed How To Be a Furry under CYD's "See Also:" because CYD hosts the main online version of the article, and it's a satire article about furry drama and the furry fandom in general, which is certainly in CYD's domain. If CYD thought the work fit their motives enough to be hosted on their site, then that's related enough to CYD for my tastes. Jigsaw Forte 03:29, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

CYD hosts a plethora a articles, images and miscellany in the vein of "How To Be a Furry." Adding all of them would just cluttered the "See also," or just having this article listed on the SE, and not the rest would seem to be favoritism. The CYD article could mentioned "How To Be a Furry" on the article itself, as a solution, which I can quickly edit in right now to see how it would look Spirou 03:37, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Fair enough; CYD article looks fine with it in, and association is still made between the two articles. That should work. Jigsaw Forte 03:48, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Aye. By the by, not antagonism was intended when I pointed out and made the first edit on your addition, just trying to follow the Wiki's ways of data presentation and formatting (which I still stumble over from time to time) =) Spirou 03:54, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Request for complete removal

Hi Green.

For personal reasons, I wish to have Quilrynn and all revisions of that article purged from the database and have it protected with the exclusion notice.

Also, I would like Moeryl to be excluded as well. --User:JKM, 10/27/2007, 11:05 CDT

Name redirects

FYI: I left messages for Spirou to stop reversing the removal of my real name as a pointer to my wikifur entry.

See http://drewkitty.livejournal.com/238637.html for verification.

If you feel comfortable taking care of this yourself, please do. I don't have confidence that he will without drama.

Thanks.

-- drewkitty(at gmail d0t c0m)

I have deleted the redirects concerned. I think it is excessive to blame Spirou for not doing so the first time. Removal of personal information is something we take seriously, but we are going to make reasonably sure that we're talking to the person concerned first. An anonymous edit is not sufficient. --GreenReaper^(talk) 01:27, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Sarafina

Hello.

I would like to request for removal of http://en.wikifur.com/wiki/Image:Sarafina.jpg as being a personal offensive hoax submitted by some hater. This is not my photo! :( Also i would like to ask you to remove http://en.wikifur.com/wiki/Image:SaffyWowMeSm.jpg as is was a beta-version of some early art posted without my permission thus violating the copyright law. Also the history of http://en.wikifur.com/wiki/Sarafina_(artist) contains a hoax personal information(real name and adress) that is highly offensive to me. Please, purge it from data base. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Sarafina(the artist) (talk • contribs) .

I beleive this is BS. For one thing, real Sarafina does not speak English well enough to know the words "hoax", "purge" and "violating" (real Russian would use the words "lie", "delete" and "break" -- these are the words we are taught in schools for the respective verbs.) As sich, I'm gonna protect that page for the time being since somebody seem to be trying to peck on it. -- Wesha 16:01, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

P.S. Сарочка, если это реально ты, свяжись со мной по аське и все сделаем - собственно говоря, так и надо было с самого начала. -- Wesha 16:06, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

I don't know. The FAQ on fanart.nala.ru is quite sophisticated in the use of English in places, though there are odd parts. I will attempt to email Sarafina at her contact address registered at lionking.org to confirm this. --GreenReaper^(talk) 16:11, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Don't worry, I have it under control. I now have reports from Russian furry community about certain stir on the topic, so let me figure it all out. What worries me is that she didn't contact me directly for that purpose, so I certainly need to investigate. I should be able to have a conversation with herself in a day or two. -- Wesha 16:36, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

OK. The email has been sent anyway. The picture does appear to be out of date. --GreenReaper^(talk) 16:58, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Identity was confirmed through email. I have deleted the two images and the history revisions concerned. --GreenReaper^(talk) 22:29, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

These might be stupid questions...

but I still would like to ask:

• Is it always unacceptable to add a link to [[[encyclopedia dramatica]] to a page (Looking something like this: [http://encyclopediadramatica .com/Aeris A satrical take on the 'Mary Sue' phenomenon]), or does it depend on the circumstances?
• What's the policy on using someone's real, birth-cirtificate listed name in their biographical article?
• What's the policy on using real life pictures in biographical articles?
• Since they're so short and they don't really have any prospects for more content, shouldn't the articles 'bisexual' and 'heterosexual' be merged into 'homosexual' to create 'sexual preference'?

Boingo 05:03, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

All content decisions are made on a case by case basis. However, ED rarely makes a good link, due to its habit of putting a highly negative spin on any subject that it covers (except for those which result in the glorification of drama). Its editors are also quite willing to make things up if doing so results in "lulz". For these reasons and others, linking to ED is strongly discouraged, and I would advise you to treat anything you find there with caution. For the specific example you give, there seems no reason not to just use an interwiki link to Wikipedia, which has a perfectly good article on the topic. We would not need to have a separate article as it is not a furry topic.

Our policy with birth names is to look at whether or not that name is being concealed in any way. For example, many artists actually go by their real names. Others use fan names alongside their real names. Still others make no mention of their real names, even on the websites containing their work. In the latter case, the use of the real name (if you know it) is probably not appropriate. Real names will usually be removed on request from the subject.

The same thing goes for real life pictures. If you know, or have reason to believe that someone would not want their picture on WikiFur, it is probably best not to put it here. On the other hand, many people do not mind, and it can be a useful means of identification.

Don't really have an opinion on the last. If you think doing so would make a better encyclopedia, you should do so. --GreenReaper^(talk) 06:24, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

I made the changes. I'd like to ask you some things about the 'sexual preference' page.

• I wrote a snippet saying that some people think that sexual orientation is an artificial construct and does not really exist. But I don't know of any furries advocating that position besides the one person that I linked.
• I altered the colors on the table so it has the holistic, ying-yang style of intermixed pink and blue. I tried to lighten the colors a lot compared to my first try at it. How does it look now?
• I wrote a section saying that a cordial split exists among Christian furs between those who believe homosexuality is immoral and those who disagree. Is this accurate? Or do all (or nearly all) of the Christian furries accept homosexuality? The only anti-gay-marriage furry that I know of is Prince Jeremy.*
• I'd like to find citations for the theories saying since having a non-furry significant other and raising children may result in a fan having less time and money to devote to the fandom, gays are over-represented because they are less likely to be raising children and Others guess that gays are not over-represented, but that they are simply much more likely to be open about their sexual orientation among their fellow fans than they are in other areas of their life.
• One other theory is that the demographics of the fandom is reasonably close to the general population. It just happens that people who become furries (a 'coming out' of sorts) become more exposed to alternate lifestyles (which might result in a paralell 'coming out'). I considered adding this to the article, but I didn't because it seems overly speculative.

Boingo 07:32, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

*Based on his infamous "you all belong in concentration camps" comment. Boingo 23:44, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

I have made further edits. Some general points:

• If you are intending to move one page to another title, use the Move tab at the top rather than cut and pasting. Doing the latter breaks the edit history, and deprives others of the credit for their prior edits, which is required for GFDL compliance.
• Link to Wikipedia by using [[Wikipedia:Article name|text to display]].
• Per the style guide, only the first word of titles should be capitalized unless the word would normally be capitalized (like a name).
• Use a spellchecker. :-) If you use a recent beta of Firefox it will have one built in.

To answer your questions:

• The table looks fine to me.
• I suspect there are some who are less than enthused about it, but I do not know for sure. You could always ask the community of Christian furs (or see if the question has been asked already). Jeremy would be an outlier for most purposes.
• I'm not sure you can really get a citation for that, but you could give examples of involvement in such activities. For example, very significant proportions of the leadership at conventions and other furry events are gay, including key members of (at least) the top five event by attendance, as well as the larger ones overseas. I should note that leadership in this area is not exclusive - as far as I know, there is no "anti-breeder" bias - but if you look closely it is a very clear trend. It might be because gay community members are more interested in organizing communal events. I don't know.
• Possible. I think the current situation is a combination of this effect and others. Again, more research is required. --GreenReaper^(talk) 21:31, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Please see my talk page. Boingo 00:31, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Questions on redirections, elimination of real name

I was looking though wikifur for my real name and it is all over the place but unlinked to anything. What is the policy of changing that to my character name at every occurrence, really would rather my real name not be seen.--JBadger 16:10, 29 December 2007 (UTC) For now put in a redirection, might leave it like that--JBadger 17:22, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

You are free to remove it if you wish, unless the WikiFur community feels otherwise (which is unusual, and unlikely to apply in your situation). --GreenReaper^(talk) 18:30, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

Sibe

I tried to add more truth to my timeline and spirou banned me for 24 hours.

Im not blanking and im clarifying the article. Im not sorry that its not a total

smash me in the face piece if you put the cons I went to and how I acted there as

a positive counter balance to the hit job the fucking article is.

I was following the rules and am getting shit on by your moderation team.

Please help me.

Sibe 07:30, 19 January 2008 (UTC)Sibe

• Sigh* You're 'not "banned for 24 hours", as you still able to write on the site. The article is temp locked for 24 hours for partial blanking, and adding nonsense to the "controversy" timeline section (if you had fun, insert it in the main article, not a reference section.) Spirou 07:39, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Accounts

Hey GR. I don't want anything to exist with my username [deleted]. I've made a new one since, and would like to know if this could be deleted. Also there is an article under my real name [deleted] and was wondering if that could be taken down as well. I'd only like an article on Leah the cheetah, which I will I guess either make or edit from the one that was [deleted]. I just don't want it to link to my real name or my former name, this name [deleted]. If this is at all possible.

Thanks! my email is [deleted] if you have any questions or I'll keep an eye on here. Let me know what can be done.  :)

Replied via email, article now at Leah the Cheetah. --GreenReaper^(talk) 08:15, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Hm...

Is this an appropriate username? Spaz Kitty 15:56, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, I was thinking about that as well. I think it's just a mistake. I'll block it. --GreenReaper^(talk) 17:01, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

What about User:Rena Dyne? They made the following edit to the Rena Dyne page ([3]), but they don't appear to actually be the person themselves. Spaz Kitty 18:34, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Personally I suspect that's more likely to be someone trying to be mysterious who was not aware that usernames were recorded in the edit history. --GreenReaper^(talk) 06:06, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

Lock my page

Can you lock my User and Talk pages, please? There is a group of individuals whom I believe will be making hostile edits in the near future. Che'samo 18:57, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

We don't really engage in preemptive locking; however, I will watch the pages concerned, and if such edits are made and protection seems appropriate, it will be applied. You can also monitor for changes by registering an email address, clicking the watch tab and ensuring that watched page notification is enabled in your preferences. --GreenReaper^(talk) 19:00, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

advice on giving citations

Hello GreenRaper. Thanks for clearing up ther article. I never used these ref-tags much. Can you recommend any way to give the required citations for that zoo-porn -redirect without drawing anyone into a possible mudfight? (I did not keep screenshots or similar to not tarnish the name later.)

--Suran 06:53, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

If you want to claim them, the "other people" really have to go on the record as having said that they saw something there. Perhaps a LiveJournal post, or a post on the attached talk page with them signed into a WikiFur account? Something that can be pointed to. I know there is an element of drawing people in, but having them name themselves would be the best bet. Only then can others judge the truth of the statement.

Another option might be for them to tell me, and I would report that some people I trust had said that (if they were people I trusted) . . . but I do not really like that option, as then readers have to trust me and someone else that they do not know the identity of. --GreenReaper^(talk) 07:08, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

I moved the all the claims to the talk-page. I is better to forget about the zooporn-incident in the long run. I also added sub-headers to break up the long text. --Suran 09:58, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

It seems that domaintools.com had made a screenshot while the page showed that content. I linked it as reference and put the claim back in. I do not know how long domaintools takes to update the screenshot to what the page is curently showing or if they are archived. --Suran 06:20, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Vandalism

Hey GR -- I believe we have the same person doing some of the recent vandalism. User:170.215.11.79 and User:170.215.11.13 seem to be too similar within too few days to otherwise be a coincidence. Can you do a broad IP block on them? I'm not too familiar with that process. ^^ Spaz Kitty 20:57, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Sure. Blocked 170.215.11.0/24 for three months. --GreenReaper^(talk) 21:01, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Need perminent lock

My page about my Second Life character Yiffy Yaffle Is repeatedly vandalised by anonymous members, who are from Encyclopedia Dramatica. These people strongly hate me and wish to silence my own opinions of my own life. I strongly request a permanent vandalism lock on this page and my own so that only registered users can post. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Wolfeedarkfang (talk • contribs) .

I was away when you requested this, but fortunately RainRat and SpazKitty were on the case. :-) --GreenReaper^(talk) 14:59, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Message from RVDDP2501 - Vandalism in progress

GreenReaper, I think we're being hit by an IP address/user named - 70.69.187.154 - he's hit and wiped a lot of pages, I'm trying to undo as I type this - RVDDP2501 12:36, 1 June 2008 (UTC)